A Framework is No Architecture

Stefan presented a somewhat provocative position that frameworks do not offer the "model" part of the classic MVC approach. It was clear he'd thought a great deal about this, and elaborated at length. However, I didn't come away with a clear idea as to whether frameworks should be completely shunned, or whether they still provide value in terms of providing some structure. I agree that architecture won't emerge just by using them, but I still think they're useful. Full disclosure: I'm on a PHP dev team using ZF2, and we like it -- we find it effective, useful and easy to change or add functionality; but I attribute that to how our leads laid out things, not that ZF2 did that for us innately.

Thank you for saying what I've been feeling for a long time. I drank the MVC koolaid but never quite felt like it fit what I was trying to do. We end up just making things work rather than adhering to some pragmatic idea of a model.